- Spiritual Fodder
- Cultic, Aberrant, or Abusive?
- Role of Women in Ministry
- Then What's a Good Church?
- Why So Quiet?
- Becky's UBF Roots
- The Letter
- Dissecting Ed's Brain
- Shepherding/Discipleship Movement
- Exit Strategy
- Moving On
What I mean by "moving on" is how to continue being Christian outside of Berkland. If you feel you've lost your faith owing to Berkland, I don't know if anything I have to say here will be helpful to you. Each person accepting Christ as Lord and Savior is nothing short of a miracle; as one LA Times reporter put it, "You've either got it [faith] or you don't." Once you have a hold on faith, or rather that God has a hold on you, the grip holds fast through the most devastating of times. Maybe there exists a breaking point for all of us, but the Bible suggests otherwise; who would know whether anyone's faith could weather the trials of Job until it happens. However I am confident stating that genuine faith should not break owing to any falling out with Berkland (although it certainly takes a bruising).
Perhaps you've accepted Christ at Berkland. Berkland teaches the Gospel squarely; it doesn't mess this part up. However, rejecting Berkland does not mean rejecting the Gospel, because it is only the messenger: I tell you the truth, no servant is greater than his master, nor is a messenger greater than the one who sent him (John 13:16). The Gospel comes from the Holy Bible, and Berkland doesn't have a monopoly on the Gospel, nor God's favor in the form of competence. Yes, there are a lot of mediocre churches out there, with mediocre people, with mediocre pastors. You've removed yourself from what your conscience clearly had been telling you is the most competent ministry you've ever experienced, even as that same conscience has been signaling red flags about its leadership model. Acclimating to a lesser church may be extremely discouraging, and just butting heads with people with such different mindsets will surely be lonesome. After all, you have been trained with certain expectations of what constitutes a Christian, and many churches are still striving to be where Berkland is at. At any rate, look for a balance of these factors: 1) a pastor with a backbone, on whom you can depend on for saying what needs to be said 2) mature officers and laypersons who can humbly keep the pastor accountable and be able to defend the pastor against any bullying by the congregation 3) a form of governance that keeps leaders accountable locally and across a network of other autonomous churches.
You will find that on the outside, other Christians do not care about Berkland's problems, because they are too busy leading Christian lives themselves. Open your eyes through research, and you will see that God is working mightily outside the confines of what you thought to be an all-important ministry, when it is in fact just one among a spectrum of Christian ministries. I was pleasantly surprised by the offerings of this book, Christianity For Dummies, which I recommend for its tidy overview of Christian denominations. There is a section on the Southern Baptist Convention, the largest umbrella denomination for Protestants, where membership by no means provides sufficient accountability. Research what makes baptists baptists (the anabaptist section is also illuminating), and consider the reasons why Ed and Becky considered this denomination most suitable for their particular vision of church: not so much the fruitless Arminianism vs. Calvinism debate, nor the importance of baptism by immersion, but the value of autonomy of the local church, and no creeds or catechisms (which means "Biblical" becomes what the local church deems "Biblical"). Study church history, in particular the Protestant Reformation, which provides much needed perspective. Study also UBF history, which will reveal how Berkland, and subsequently Gracepoint, are spin-offs of the same problematic model.
Realize that Berkland is of the mold of earthly institutions; their random, inconsistent interpretations/exegesis of Scripture across the leadership should signal to you that a consistent and proper doctrine is of a lesser importance than the expediencies of leadership. It might take time to disassociate Berkland from the Bible itself. It's okay, just give your brain some time, but each person probably needs his own prescription to achieve this end, e.g. pick up a safe hobby to distract yourself away from harmful reflections. This gradual disassociation may take 3-4 years. Learn to confidently use the Word like a sword (Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God Eph 6:17) and you will realize how undisciplined Berkland staff were in deeming what was "Biblical," who often themselves merely parroted what was handed down to them instead of convincing themselves of the truth they were handling. You need to take back the Word and make it yours, which the Berkland leadership had monopolized when you were their sheep. By no means am I advocating a relativistic, individualistic approach, but that your understanding and choices be your own and consistent with conservative, mainstream doctrine (watch out: there are false teachers aplenty, e.g. Joel Osteen).
Ed and Kelly's assessment of your spiritual maturity will reveal itself as one of many opinions, not authorative opinions. Yes, they have devoted their life to their ministry, but the degree of devotion is not a criteria for correctness. We all need to honestly gauge our spiritual maturity with the help of others (although for a time you may find other people are at a different wavelength or maturity level; if they are more mature than you are, all the better). If we are not leading the Christian lives we ought to be living, we should acknowledge that we do so at our own peril. Knowing what you know, grow to become the Christian that you believe to be sound, at your own pace and without pressure: serve at your church selflessly and without expectations of reward, build strong relationships with your congregation members, learn to wield the Word responsibly, etc. Start slowly and grow steadily, without forgetting the things which you've personally deemed to be right about Berkland.
59 comments:
ditto Hamcycle. I think one's faith after leaving Berkland really shows the substance of that faith. When devotions, prayers, and holiness are no longer motions in a sterilized test tube...what are you going to do with your life? Are you going to continue to deny the sinful and carnal desires, but instead choose to glorify God? Leaving Berkland for me was a call to arms to live my Christian life even more devoted to God's purpose.
this is your best post yet. Very objective, encouraging people to be good xtians apart from Berkland, etc. I am thankful for this post.
Hamcycle, this is a well-written post. However, I think you are being too generous in stating that "Berkland teaches the Gospel squarely." Becky regularly teaches that "it is sometime necessary to lie or deceive in order to truly love someone." Now, I grant that there may be exceptional cases where one is pressed to lie to protect someone, but for the top teacher/leader of a church to regularly teach that lying is a regular function of love, well, that is just demonic. Berklanders on staff are regularly taught to "hide" certain things (i.e. the truth) from sheep. "It's for their own good," we are told. Also, we are regularly taught to disregard civil and even criminal law. If you object to the last sentence, then I will follow this post up with concrete examples. Longterm members of BBC, you know what these things are. So I suggest you not object too loudly.
Care to follow up with some concrete examples? I must say that I am curious.
I am a ex(Boston)berklander. I beccame a exberklander as a consequence of the church split.
my leader, a staff member in boston, rebuked me because of my sins. But I noticed that the last thing he wanted was that I would simply submit to his authority. The only thing my leader wanted from me was for me to repent before God, and be right before Him.
I can only speak for myself. I know rebuke is not for everyone, but I know I am not the only one who have benefitted from the rebukes.
Let us all pray for each other, and those who are hurt, and still hurting. May the love of the Christ and the grace of God heal us and bring repentence and reconciliation.
Wow.. what you says articulates exactly what I was thinking ever since I arrived here. I am a freshman. I grew up my entire life in a pretty good community of faith. My family are all followers and i grew up with morally strict values as well. But one thing that struck me IMMEDIATELY was the tendency of loyalty to the church over loyalty to God. Honestly, God may have other plans for me, whether it is to serve in a more "mediocre" church, that is not as organized in terms of leadership. Or his plan may be for me to move to a diff. country and who knows? It really bothers me that the attitude is basically "serve the church or you're not Christian." They have SO many activities together 24/7 all days of the week, and one staff told me that she was glad that church takes up so much of her time because if it didn't, she'd have nothing to do and end up hanging with the wrong crowd and participating in sinful behavior. But for me? things are different. I enjoy spending time with relatives near the area, practicing my instrument, studying, etc. So sometimes when they have these really late night activities, I choose not to go just because I'm not used to staying out so late. But they see it as a spiritual apathy. I've also had one instance where someone asked how my spiritual life was going after I decided not to attend a late night dinner / game night due to the physical stress accumulated from my studies.. Also I have a problem with my leaders that I haven't mentioned. I'm really happy for them that they accepted Christ here at this church. Some of the leaders accepted Christ only a few years ago, which is a very good thing. I've been a follower for a very long time, and I'm not saying that I'm superior to them because I've believed in Christ before them. That's actually not true. But spiritual maturity wise, I can put my hand on the bible and honestly say that I feel like I am spiritually mroe mature than my leaders. Living the life is hard and in growing up and living as a Christ follower for the past decade or so, I've matured greatly and experienced countless instances that helped me grew in faith. A lot of my leaders still have a very naive/ immature view of Christianity and they expect that kind of views from you. For example, they expect all freshmen/students in general are not "true" Christians and they expect that we are very immature/ have immature notions about the faith, which is definitely not true. Another thing that upsets me is about "ambition," and the whole big deal they put about it. Honestly, I surrendered my life to God a long time ago and I'll go where he tells me to. I'm planning on going into a profession, solely because that is what I'm good at and even the personality tests they encourage at the church say I should. Coincidentally, this is a high paying profession. When I was in high school, I made up my mind that I would give up all I had to the church and to missions. In this way, I can honor God with my success. BUT this church's view is that any plans of ambition/succeeding mean that you are placing ambition OVER God, which is not true for me.. but yeah they just impose so much on you that at one point it gets really annoying. I read an article about how a regular staff member can be expected to accept and rededicate their lives 3-4 times in the course of their serving at the church. Even though I have accepted Christ and dedicated my life to him, all the messages and the staff are so intent on having us repent and "Re"dedicate our lives to God. But how do you do that if you are already doing that? By the way.. to whoever wrote the 3rd post, i'd like to know what things they say to hide. I've already been fed up with my staff no matter how much I try to be patient. As a human, I'm fallible to get fed up by people, especially people who hound me to accept God and dedicate my life 24/7 , 7 days a week to the CHURCH, not specifically God, but to the CHURCH, to serve the church leaders, etc. Whew. what a long post
To 2/20/2008 4:57 AM, I'm a current Boston Berklander. Would you be willing to share your story? I had mentioned on http://www.berkland-berkeley.blogspot.com that it seems like most of the criticisms of BBC are from Berkeley, Silicon Valley and Irvine. I have yet to hear substantial criticisms of any other branch (Boston, New York, D.C., Seattle, L.A.). How did you come to leave BBC after the church split? Why did you come to the decision to leave?
I do agree with your point - I was never harshly rebuked, but whenever my leader talked about our sins, it was always to reconcile my relationship with God. It was never about following my leader's directives.
Can you not look beyond your tribalistic instincts and see things for what they are? You cannot shed light within your own house, yet with those same lips claim to be witnesses to Truth.
Hamcycle, your post struck a chord with me. I was at BBC Berkeley for 4 years, and leaving the church was an extremely difficult thing to do. Those first few months after leaving BBC were pretty lonely, since I had known no community but that one. But, like another commenter said, my desire to serve God became greater. I've been away from BBC for a few years now, and I've been blessed by the church I currently attend.
Thanks for creating this blog. You are able to put into words the many complex and often confusing emotions that ex-Berklanders (and possibly current Berklanders) experience.
To 2/21/2008 11:07 PM, or "Mr. I think only the berkeley branch berkland has problem, but not the one in Boston or LA:"
It is weird and curiously alarming that you are showing this kind of unhealthy interest and eagerness. You're throwing mud only at the Berkeley branch of BBC on the basis of one comment posted by a freshman? What exactly is your motivation? Becky JDSN, that wicked witch, had hurted and damaged so many once kind-hearted people I knew. I am sure you don't have a history like most of us posters had. So quit picking side and try to make this a tribal issue.
To the freshman: same to you. Personally I don't know that many, I mean, any, mature 18 year-olds, period, especially those who "swear on the Bible that I am more mature than my leaders." If you have even a shallow understanding of the scripture, which you claimed to have, then you should know that it teaches you not to swear.
To the freshman,
I'm very glad that you found this blog. Every time a young person writes to me bout their concerns, it's bitter sweet because I realize you are at a major crossroad in your life with some serious decisions to make, and perhaps some major mistakes yet to be made.
At any rate, the most importantly issue is how you will decide to follow Christ. Other students who had written were generally cautious about the position they ought to take, and even though they seemed to affirm what I've written, each time I was fearful how my advice would impact their spiritual journey. I feel the soundness of all that you've written, but who knows what's really in your heart. There is nothing definite about all of this, and this warrants all our consideration.
To "strike a chord,"
I'm glad you've found the blog and was able to find some assurance, and your words of affirmation is invaluable.
To "Boston Berkland" member,
I don't know how BBC Boston does things, especially long after Becky had been on her sabbatical. I hope your experience is the result of genuine change at Boston.
What would Pastor Ed or Kelly need to do to make things right? This is not intended in any way to be a sarcastic or rhetorical question. But honestly and sincerely, what would make things right for the hurt and offended people?
Would it take a personal apology to each person offended? Righting of ways at the church? What?
I'm sure that people have stated it here and there throughout all of these blogs, but if someone could state it simply, it would help me to make sense of how to reconcile all these issues.
It seems that so many people have been hurt and offended, and that is awful. So, how can people be healed and be able to move on?
Honestly, I think that this blog only has ONE good quality--it can be quite therapeutic/cathartic, BUT I think that it can also be very damaging and un-Christianity at times. So, since true healing or reconciliation cannot take place here on this blog, what are people looking for in terms of making this right?
I don't think Gracepoint is ready to give what a lot of people want: simple honesty. The leadership has already conveniently opened up new books and made itself anew, tucking away the past abuses as part of the Berkland Empire, not the shiny new Gracepoint.
It's not unlike those entrepreneurs that incorporate a new business, rack up debt, and then declare bankruptcy only to incorporate a new business without a thought to the prior debts.
That's no way to run a church. Take responsibility. I think many of those posting at these blogs have by not making themselves out to be helpless victims. They realize how their decisions contributed to what they went through at Berkland.
Really, if this blog, as you say, has one good quality, then I say that it deserves to be read and it deserves to stay for others to contribute to the discussion.
Because the comment section of these blogs are something of an open forum, you will have some inappropriate things written in them. But, here's some news for you, people say a lot worse. You do know that, right?
If there can be any hope of reconciliation, then there must be a statement of how things went wrong and some acknowledgment from the other party that wrongs were indeed committed.
But it's not even a topic that's open to discussion at Gracepoint. You would all rather pretend that it never happened or speak as if the carnage exhibited in these comments and elsewhere is just incidental causualties because your particular vision has been so uncompromising. And, having read Ed's letter, we know that there were, in fact, many compromises. Too many.
We've done our part. This blog is testimony. If you were God-fearing, compassionate Christians, you would really consider what Gracepoint could do, and not suggest that we go away. Really, how dare you?
To clarify: I never said or suggested that this blog should go away, and I am not a member of Gracepoint.
Then just go away. Or write to Pastor Ed to ask him what all this is about. Really, shouldn't the question about what Pastor Ed can do be posed to him if you were truly that interested?
That's true, too. I was only hoping to find out what people thought may help them to get some healing, reconciilation and closure from all of this. I'll leave it at that, from there--didn't mean to offend you or anyone else.
As you are in no position to mediate, why present us with hypotheticals? I hope hamcycle's blog remains, if only as an invitation for Gracepoint leadership to speak truth. The mutual sleight-of-hand performed by both Berkland (oh, we just let Berkeley and the other branches go independent) and Gracepoint (oh, we're Gracepoint, now) is abhorrent.
Hi Isaiah – I have a response/question to your second statement on your first post. First of all, your parents don’t simply "tell" people when they disagree with some people. Your parents will rebuke them with harsh words, often in the presence of others like your direct leader or sometime your peers/friends/younger ones. Quiet true that, yes, some people believe that your parents are too bossy – we don’t like the fact that your parents tell us when they disagree with you. But why should we? Why should we agree with your parents? I agree with you that some things are right and wrong, but how do you know if your parents have the right answer all the time? The word "bossiness" does not come up with just few incidences but with countless incidences. People say that your parents are bossy, because they so often, if not always, think that only their way/view is right. But how can you say that your parents are always right? Unless you say that they’re flawless saints? Moreover, your argument of "blatant relativism" would work only if their insistence is indeed about "absolute moral truths". The problem here is that the issue is not about the absolute moral standard, but simply about your parents’ preferences. I don’t think people think your parents are "bossy" because they disagree with your parents that killing is bad. People were not rebuked nor were faced with expulsion from the church, because they think that torturing babies just for fun is OK. No, people are constantly being corrected left and right for things like setting up a table, saying hi to them, designing things like frame in a certain way, eating, dressing, talking, exercising, buying, etc, etc... What I'm trying to communicate here is that we're not being unreasonable relativist, a post-modernistic rebellion against being told that there are absolute moral truths.
The comment that was posted above, at 4:13 PM, may have been posted in the wrong section. (pssst...paragraph breaks might help, too.)
you know. i'm just exhausted and fed up. i'm a gracepointer right now & one of the upper classmen. I've been here for a few years and it is too suffocating. i agree with them on many issues (the issues that they stay close to the bible to), such as not dating, not being stingy with money, etc.. so many other things regarding how to live a christian life.
but there are some things that they do that are not in the bible nor biblical in any way. among them are in how and what they rebuke staff and some students. the bible specifically says to do so in a very loving and humble manner (no matter what position of leadership you're in). Yes, there are times when Jesus is harsh in his rebukes. But, that's the difference. HE'S JESUS. Furthermore, Jesus does not ever rebuke his disciples for trifling things such as not saying hi, etc.. many things. i'm not goign to go into details because my intended audience is mainly for the staff, who very well know what I am talking about.
i've been hurt by my leader many times. i've never been rebuked by this leader, simply because I don't stray from what the Bible says and what Gracepoint is about regarding a christian life. but i've been hurt in countless ways.
at one point, i was so hurt that I brought up in a private meeting between the two of us, "you know what you said that time? it really hurt me" i said this in a very kind way, not accusing or lashing out. i'm not going to bring up everything i was hurt by, but it was no small issue. i've been pretty obedient with instruction. if a leader notices soemthing in me and points it out, i take it into consideration and seriously meditate over my actions. however, she hurt me in a way that was over this range. she wasn't even correcting me about my actions or giving me advice.
at this mention that I had been hurt by what she said, she became hostile and defensive. she told me that if i had a problem, i can go to another church and if I still wanted to stay here, then she'd ask HER leader to transfer me over.
as a result of the interaction between this leader and me, i've been very discouraged to open up to others. it's hurting my relationship with my peers as well and i find it hard to trust others
i'm currently thinking about visiting other churches. i've been very hurt by this leader and this is a first for me.. having a leader completely turn on you like this was really unexpected.
Right. I've already written somewhere that your leader will just as readily disown you as he would minister to you after making dinner. In their minds, it is "us versus them." When a leader shows concern for you, it as as a representative of Berkland the body; he is not giving of himself, but of the collective. If you show signs of rejecting his leadership, his reservoir of patience, which already has been stretched thin as it is in demonstrating the monolithic front, becomes depleted and is immediately noticeable.
It is not behavior/psychology that I would characterize as appealing, genuine, or normal.
Hey Hamcycle - i'm the person who wrote the previous comment (that is, the one before yours). i'm seriously thinking about leaving this church; however, i'm torn because of some things. first thing is, over the years, i've communicated a lot with my leader about some sins that i struggle with. i just want to leave quietly. bu i read in your other post that they'll just openly show members what you wrote in private confession. i don't want this because i have family members that might be affected, and i definitely don't want my younger siblings seeing me bashed like that. also, i read how some people are torn with leaving because they'll be treated as the black sheep or a pariah. i agree with this. this is the main reason i've hung on. however, i think that this is it now. i'm leaving.. but i'd like to do so quietly without provoking my leader any further. howver, i don't think that theyll just let me go with no reason. i'm sure they'll harass me to give them a reason... but at the same time, i don't want to give reasons, because i don't want to fight with them. they'll just give excuses and use my reason to slander me more. any advice?
you know what else is REALLY interesting? in all my time here, i've never seen ONE staff or hardcore member give even a little change to all the homeless people as they walk down Telegraph. (berkeley has an over-abundance of homeless people, always sitting at corners and sidewalks asking for spare change). whenever we walk by, or we stop and wait for the light to turn red, NEVER. not ONE.
The homeless issue is a difficult one. There are quite a few Christian groups on campus and many of them collaborate with ministries and secular social workers to provide some assistance to the local homeless. I hear Pastor Paul used to hand out bills to the homeless kids on Telegraph. He was a compassionate fellow even if he couldn't put a muzzle on his wife. But don't knock all the Christians who pass the homeless without digging into their pockets. Those who work in social services will tell you that the money typically goes to drugs and alcohol. There are shelters and other places homeless folk can go to for basic necessities. Really, have you seen any homeless person on Telegraph that looked malnourished?
As to the confidentiality of your conversations with your Gracepoint leaders. You needn't worry too much. Two reasons: (1) the staff member has probably shared all the details already among the leaders and (2) they don't really go into smear campaigns when a person leaves. If you have older relatives who still attend Gracepoint, they may say something about you lacking spirituality or something along those lines.
You should definitely spend time in prayer about both issues. If you have a heart for the homeless, you will do your heart, mind and soul some good by volunteering your time with the homeless. And you should pray fervently on the issue of leaving.
My 2 cents: Fear is no reason to stay at a church.
Thanks to the above poster.. I know that they probably wouldn't go into smearing campaigns necessarily, but i read somewhere on the blogs that should people question about me after my leave, they will openly talk about my sins, struggles, etc. and you are right.. fear is not a reason to stay at a church. i'm going to be praying about this a lot over the next few days until the end of the semester.
and as of now =) i am volunteering with several organizations for the homelesss! i know that this is a completely different issue, and yeah i know that a lot of homeless people spend their money on drugs and alcohol as a result of my involvement with these organzations; however, there are always several homeless people (2-3 that i'm thinking of specifically) that look somewhat malnourished and very thin. Sometimes i offer them food, health drinks + whatever cash I have on me, but it really strikes me how not once, have any of the staff i know gave even a few cents passing by. For example, we'd be coming out of starbucks with change, and passing right by the homeless person, the staff pockets the change..
if indeed one of the purposes of this blog is to point out the faults of Berkland/Gracepoint staff, ignoring the homeless on Telegraph wouldn't be one of them. perhaps you are trying to point out out hypocrisy or disingenuous faith, but i wouldn't fair well under such criticism either.
i have a heart towards ministering to children, because i believe influence at this time molds them to become the person they will be for the rest of their lives. the homeless on Telegraph are often casualties of substance abuse, and my heart is too small to show compassion to them, which i would have otherwise given to those it would have greater influence; some people have insatiable appetites for the goodwill of others, and these in my opinion are those who are substance abusers.
as to how to leave, i've noticed two standard routes: 1) don't give any explanation, and stonewall any of their attempts to communicate.2) you need to serve at your father's church. Option 2 only works if you are a PK.
Serving at your parents' church is a good one. Funny, too, because it's true about how we would like a tidy escape from Berkland. I think my approach came closer to the stonewall.
When I left, I was already emotionally detached from Berkland and Berklanders. In fact, I thought there would be more of an attempt on the part of the Berkland leader to persuade me to stay. But I suppose I may have already distinguished myself as being hard to manage by that time.
So, to the Gracepointer who is thinking of leaving: rather than the constant phone calls you imagine, you should be equally prepared for the silence and isolation. And the annoying greetings from those Gracepointers who stayed behind who you will likely pass walking Sproul Plaza: "How are you doing spiritually? Are you growing?" At that point, you will see how empty the fellowships have been when you consider "Do they really care?" If they are sincere, then they imagine that you have somehow fallen and become some pitiable reprobate when you left Gracepoint.
And you can easily fall having lost that enveloping network. So, be quick and discerning to place yourself into a good fellowship sooner than later. It's good that you are prayerfully looking at other fellowships, now.
To hamcycle + above anonymous poster: given hamcycle's 2 options, the only option i have is the first one since i'm not a pk. stonewalling / refusing all communication seems to be the best way to cut off relations with gracepoint completely (honestly, at this point, i want to have little to do with them). but i still think that i should at least offer an explanation to my leader. it seems too cruel to just stonewall/ cut relationships without an explanation. at the same time, i would've liked things to have ended positively instead of me leaving with many hurts and wounds.
and to above poster, i'm preparing myself for the silence and isolation, which will not be easy. from some previous commenters and what i've noticed happening to other people who leave the church, they're shunned and given the silent treatment.
What will happen will happen. On your part, you should be as honest and courageous as possible. Speak your mind, but don't get emotional or ramble. Give your Gracepoint brothers and sisters a clear statement of your decision and, as much as necessary, your reasons for leaving.
You will thank yourself later if you choose to be direct and candid as you leave. And you will have less to regret as you consider how you could have done things.
I don't have any good advice on leaving. The two options I gave were not advice, but what I've noticed from people who desired to avoid confrontation.
Ed gave a directive for members to greet former members on the street years ago, owing to criticisms of ostracization. What resulted were shotgun hellos, saccharin smiles, followed by briskly walking away. From what I'm hearing, Ed's forgetting to tell his new batch of sheep to keep up appearances.
Seems like Ed has responded in a roundabout way to the criticisms:
http://www.gracepointonline.org/gp/notebook
I read the entry in the pastor's notebook page. Are you perhaps reading a little too much into it? I can see it as perhaps alluding to one of his criticisms of Becky in his letter to her. But even that is a bit of a stretch.
The graceful way to leave.
I have been reading 'Whats so Amazing about Grace' by Philip Yancey and learned a few things about grace recently -namely I lack it. I never really thought I lacked grace, because compared against my leaders I was abounding with it -but my measure isn't my leaders, my measure is Jesus Christ. (Just to be clear, I'm from a baby Berkland, not Berkeley or Boston).
Find a path that will take you away from Berkland, as someone suggested already, 'help out with your parent's church.' This is a great suggestion for two reasons, firstly it provides you a way out, but also it saves face. You might also consider serving with a non-profit ministry or going on a mission trip, helping with a church plant or going on to higher education.
One of the reasons that I spent so long considering leaving Berkland (nearly 5 years) is because I wanted to save face, I wanted to feel that it wasn't all a waste, I wanted to leave with my head up. Give your leaders face. Not because they deserve it; they may, they may not. You give your leaders face because it is the Graceful thing to do. Show them grace. Pray for them. Pray with them. Tell them about your plans. Tell them about how Jesus is moving your heart. If you are earnest to serve the Lord and he is calling you elsewhere, there is nothing they can say or do.
You disarm them with your kindness:
On the contrary: "If your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink. In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head. Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good. (Romans 12:20-21)
If you treat them with grace, if you make your leaders an object of prayer, if you genuinely desire to move on, God is faithful and he can work beyond your imagination to bring about the most extraordinary changes in your life.
One of my favorite quotes is from a preacher named Leonard Ravenhill, Keith Green's spiritual mentor.
'You never pray about someone you're gossiping about, and you never gossip about someone you're praying about.'
If you want closure, if you want to put all the bitterness and harm behind you, pray for the people who hurt you, treat them better than they treated you, give them respect, show them love and kindness.
I do not know what God has in store for me after I leave Berkland, in reflection I am thankful for all of the tough times as well as the good times. It is the bad times as well as the good that make me the person I am today, if I had not gone through the trials that I had gone through I would not be ready for the ones that God has in store.
Make peace with yourself, make peace with your leaders at Berkland.
"save face" has been the unstated berkland motto almost since the beginning.
sometimes saving face IS appropriate.
does the bible say save face? is that grace? if the person who hurt you never realizes their wrong, can they know grace?
berkland baptist church -- babies and all -- have not made it a practice or goal to show their dirty faces. there's been too much face saving.
To the poster above, do you ever get a feeling you are doing a dis-service to the people you left behind by leaving in a manner that saves face? Like you, I recently left bbc and wanted to leave in a mature and responsible way. I took the high road and didn't cause waves. When people asked me why I was leaving I hinted at some of the core bbc problems but ultimately attributed it to "my time at bbc is over and I feel conviction that I should move on."
but sometimes I wonder about my friends still there, all the younger guys and girls who knew me and "my outreach." I see them still under the same paradigm continuing to struggle to live the "worthy life" as defined by bbc. They weren't included in the true inner workings for various reasons despite having given bbc their lives just like I had. Anyhow, sometimes I feel like I've saved myself but left others to continue down the exact same path I struggled on for many years.
I saved face. I think I was able to allow the leaders to save face. But I often wonder if all this saving face has left the truth buried.
Grace again.
I'll Answer both of the replys as well as I can.
1. Saving face.
Q. does the bible say save face? is that grace? if the person who hurt you never realizes their wrong, can they know grace?
Here are three passages from the bible to consider when we think about 'saving face.'
Forgive us our sins, for we also forgive everyone who sins against us. And lead us not into temptation. (Luke 11:4 NIV)
Above all, keep fervent in your love for one another, because love covers a multitude of sins. (1 Peter 4:8 NASB)
27" But I say to you who hear, Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, 28 bless those who curse you, pray for those who abuse you. 29 To one who strikes you on the cheek, offer the other also, and from one who takes away your cloak do not withhold your tunic either. 30 Give to everyone who begs from you, and from one who takes away your goods do not demand them back. 31 And as you wish that others would do to you, do so to them.
32 "If you love those who love you, what benefit is that to you? For even sinners love those who love them. 33 And if you do good to those who do good to you, what benefit is that to you? For even sinners do the same. 34 And if you lend to those from whom you expect to receive, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners, to get back the same amount. 35 But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return, and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, for he is kind to the ungrateful and the evil. 36 Be merciful, even as your Father is merciful. (Luke 6:27-36 ESV)
Saving face is not central to Christianity, it is more of a confucian doctrine. Koreans and Chinese are especially adamant when it comes to saving face. Berkland Baptist Church was not my first church experience, and I have known many more transparent Christians -but not so often among Asian American believers. I really believe that this is a cross that leaders in Asian American churches have refused to bare, they stubbornly hold onto their cultural beliefs even when they run contrary to the bible.
But we have to remember that the bible is from a Eastern culture also, so respect, 'saving face' is heavily emphasized as well -although Jesus kind of spits in the face of this notion with his emphasis on grace. He never gives face to the pharisees, in fact, he often shows them just how little they deserve 'face.' Jesus on the contrary gives face to prostitutes, tax collectors, fishermen -people who in every normal estimation did not deserve face, these were the kind of people Jesus wanted to be associated with.
That being said, I still believe it is in our best interest to show our leaders grace -if only to be a little more like Jesus. Even if they think they are religious elite, we see their sins as clearly as a scarlet letter. They might as well be the harlot who encountered Jesus, it is for this reason that we forgive.
How old were Becky JDSN and Pastor Paul when they started the church in Berkeley in 1981? You do not have to be very mature to be more mature than a bunch of 18 year old college freshman. Becky JDSN and Pastor Paul have lived their entire ministry life among people who were always 'under them.' No doubt this is one of the reasons for their attitudes of superiority and blatant pride. They lack very basic Christian Maturity -I do not think that our leaders have ever emphasized maturity in the way that the bible emphasizes maturity.
While the bible emphasizes maturity as becoming more like Jesus, this church has always emphasized maturity as becoming more like our leaders. So in a way, all of the leaders in our church have been modeling themselves on an immature pair of fallen human beings and their ministry model. Of course there is going to be systemic abuses, the system is broken, until people start trying to be more like Jesus and less like Becky JDSN nothing is going to change -that major difference is not just maturity, it is grace!
I really believe that even though I have not sat under the ministry of Becky JDSN directly, I have been an indirect recipient of her Spiritual Immaturity. Of course, just like a photo-copy of a photo-copy, the edges get a little blurred, so my leaders have some different quirks than Becky JDSN or Pastor Ed from Berkeley, but the same general issues of immaturity emerge.
One thing to remember is that our leaders are still people. We may not want to spend any more time with hem here on earth, but if they are really Christian, and we are really Christian, then we are going to be spending eternity together -I'd rather leave on a positive note and not have to pick up the pieces in front of the throne of God.
There are many different leaders at the Berkland that I attend, and each one of them is a different person, over the years I have been hurt by several of them, but that doesn't mean that I should uniformly treat them all the same. There are some leaders at the church who I dare say, I love, and even though I am leaving I will miss them. There are other leaders where I have little or no love, and Jesus needs to teach me to love them in spite of the things they have done or said to me. That is why I need to learn grace and forgiveness, not for them, but for me.
When it comes down to it, they may never admit that they committed any wrong worth forgiving -but that doesn't mean that we do not forgive them. I want to break the cycle of ungrace; that has to start with me. I have to be the one who says 'stop!' I am unwilling to carry this bitterness any longer!
I am not giving them face because of some confucian morality, or because they deserve it; they may, they may not. I give them face, because in the end, forgiveness is what I need for my own personal healing, I need to let go of the burden of bitterness that I have been holding onto. Its counter intuitive. Instinctively I want to see justice, I want to see them stand before the congregation and admit their wrongs and make amends for the things they have done, but even Jesus didn't make people do that.
By forgiving those who have done wrong to me, I put the judgement decision in the hands of the Lord. He will hold them accountable for the things they have done and said, it is not my right, nor my duty to do so. I am free to become different than my leaders. If I do not learn to forgive them, I may very well become just like them!
2. Left Behind
Q. To the poster above, do you ever get a feeling you are doing a dis-service to the people you left behind by leaving in a manner that saves face?
I thought through many scenarios, and I have thought about my friends, brothers and sisters who are still going to be in Berkland after I have left. Some of them are very content -I might make a comparison to the movie 'The Matrix,' they may never realize that there are any problems with the group and never question any of their leaders motives or decisions, they'll just go along with the ship. Is it right to try to force these people out of their 'sleep.' They may not be prepared, unwilling, or unable to accept what I have to say.
That being said, I did not live in a bubble during my time at Berkland, what got me in trouble the most is that I vocally and repeatedly challenged the judgements laid down by my leaders. I gained quite a reputation as someone who was ungrateful, but unbeknownst to my leaders, it made me a kind of 'Robin Hood' figure among my peers.
I realized after several years that I wasn't the only one that had problems with my leaders, but I was the most vocal about them. Others were maybe more wise, or more timid, and did not express there opinions in the open. But I realize that there are many more people within Berkland that are discerning as well. I am not the only person who could smell something 'funny.'
To be fair, I think that even the leaders have sensed a tone of discontentment especially among the young adults about the direction that the church is going. Recently the leaders have been doing a lot to set a positive trend, but as two brothers confided to me in private, they fear it will be a lot more of the same old same old. They were actually the ones who mentioned to me that they felt that the main problem our leaders had was immaturity, I had always been looking for a different needle in the hay-stack to explain their attitudes... but immaturity seems to be the proper diagnosis.
There are probably five or six brothers and sisters besides them that I can mention off hand as 'discontented.' People who grew up in different churches are usually some of the first to become discontented because they have something to measure the leaders against besides other Berkland leaders. People with a strong humanities background are also some of the first to become discontent -if you read enough Voltaire or Nietzche, or any philosophical/psycholotical/sociological/anthropological kind kind of books you'll start questioning their leadership. Then again, surprisingly, if someone is serious about their faith, they want to go to seminary, they read their bible, they read other Christian books (classics like Pilgrim's Progress, etc.) then one can become more discerning about he problems with the leaders.
My point is, it may not be your friend's 'time' to wake up. As far as I know, God has used the Berkland Church that I attend to bless many people -I have been singled out for abuse many times because I'm a sucker for punishment, but there are a lot of people who float by under the radar and get blessed by the messages and teachings. Is it my job to stir up things for them even if they don't have any problems with the leaders?
Also, my pastor admitted to me frankly that he has 'favorites.' There are people who just aren't going to get the same kind of treatment that I did -no matter what kind of bad or stupid things they do. I could sneeze and get rebuked for it (have my salvation questioned, be verbally abused and insulted, be called retarded or worse) and one of the 'favorites' could get away with murder and get a pat on the back.
Then again, your friends could also be under one of the better leaders. I guess the grass always looks greener on the other side of the fence, but there were definitely leaders that I felt were better than others -and some people genuinely loved their leaders and vice-versa. So its not my place to say to other people 'hey, this church sucks, you better get out of here.' If other people are having a problem with the church, they may find a way to let you know about it, and trust they'll find a way out if thats what they're seeking.
If you are really concerned, pray for them, meet with them outside of church and spend time with them. Invite them to Christian events like concerts, volunteering opportunities etc. where they can see other Christians than the ones at the church. Give them books that might have helped you. There are a lot of things you can do besides just going up to them and saying 'Hey, you know Berkland is a cult.' Because I agree with another blogger, its not a cult, but its still messed up.
First let's agree to what saving face even means: "[Saving face] plays an important role in negotiation, in that one party may stick to its position in order to avoid looking bad."
By this definition, Jesus clearly was not one who 'saved face' for anyone. He was always cutting to the core of every issue and person he encountered; in fact the Gospel accounts are almost always of Jesus exposing, rather ungracefully, false appearances.
The rich young ruler: Jesus dashed his empty sense of righteousness. The merchants and moneychangers at the temple: again pointing to the emptiness of religious ceremony. The good Samaritan: who truly is the neighbor? Calling the Pharisees "whitewashed tombs": this underscores Jesus' desire to point to how things TRULY were behind the facades. I can list so many more examples, but I don't want to make this post into a Sunday School lesson. Prostitutes and tax collectors on the other hand did not need any 'face saving' because their sinfulness was plain as day; in their hearts, they knew there was nothing of their projected and self image to salvage.
Berkland, from the hushed adultery to the hushed letter, was always scrambling to salvage their own "whitewashed tomb."
There is something wrong in having college kids, year after year, having to PATRONIZE to the errors of supposed church 'adults' (I've already mentioned this in the 'Why So Quiet?'). Are the staff senile octogenarians who should be spared the indignity of correction? No.
Don't confuse "grace" with avoiding the duty of correcting. In essence you are permitting Berkland to "stick to its position without looking bad" and thereby doing nothing to stop their abuse of authority. On the other hand, openly opposing Berkland to bring about correction can be, to borrow from Ed's own words, the most difficult thing anyone can ever do.
Hamcycle, this is the advocate of grace. I would like to discuss this with you further, but I don't know if the blog is the best place to do that because I would rather keep my anonymity and I feel I might compromise myself more if I continue to write here. What is a good way to get in touch with you? (email?)
Sure, I welcome your email. Geemayle of the same handle.
one point to keep clear here is that we cannot fall into this idea that anyone is purely wrong. mostly, people that hurt others or do wrong are not always hurting and doing wrong. often it may be even with good intentions.
I'm not accusing all of you as falling into this trap, but I want to point out that in the end, if you are really a Christian and have a desire to love God and love others, let God be the judge. May your own personal relationship be right with God where ever you attend for church. But in the end, don't get caught up wanting to point out everything and expose everything about a person or church. Yes, you may feel it as doing justice, but in the end, God is the only righteous and objective, and worthy and true judge.
Ed and Kelly will have to answer ultimately to God, and we are not them, so we don't know their true motives.
Keep in mind that we will have to answer to God as well, we are all sinners that have fallen short.
you will have no peace otherwise, always hoping they will somehow be implicated in a grand open fashion, which may not and most likely will not happen. why? because they have done good along with the bad. and you will fall into the cycle of wanting to hear how others too were wronged and being an endless collector of stories by those who were wronged, and find that to be a fuel that constantly fuels your anger and resentment.
Consider David, who had the opportunity to kill Saul, but didn't. He only cut off a piece of his garment and showed him that he could. But he respected the fact that Saul was the Lord's anointed, so held back, not out of reverence for Saul directly, but really out of reverence for God's anointing upon him.
Of course, the biblical thing would be, you can try to make right with them to voicing your wrongs. but my personal experiences are that they are similar to becky in that sense. they admit general personal faults, but not specific faults that actually hurt anyone. more so, it seems to be turned around as all your fault, and that you should repent for your wrong views and misunderstandings, because they love you and care for you. Often, their conversation tone will be of "I don't understand..." and perhaps they really don't understand, which is a pity, because compassion is all about trying to understand.
So if your offender will not admit wrong, what do you do? Just forgive as much as you can, but at the same time, accept the reality that the relationship will not be the same, and that you can move on in peace in knowing that you have done your part.
I have heard that GFC members have read Total Forgiveness, and I have read it as well. I recommend it. It's just a good book.
I say all these things, because I'm just trying to have everyone be free. The truth should set you free - not cause you to be trapped in an endless cycle of wanting justice which may never come in your lifetime. and the truth can only set you free if you are freed by grace and the from that grace, draw the courage and strength to forgive.
Peace and grace to you all. I'm not making excuses for GFC and Berkland, but no church is perfect, just like all of us are imperfect. I pray that you may find an imperfect church that helps you grow in your relationship with Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior.
-truthseeker
one point to keep clear here is that we cannot fall into this idea that anyone is purely wrong. mostly, people that hurt others or do wrong are not always hurting and doing wrong. often it may be even with good intentions.
Admittedly, this blog presents the opposition two dimensionally. However, it is trying to make a case against an opponent who have dodged criticism for decades.
But in the end, don't get caught up wanting to point out everything and expose everything about a person or church. Yes, you may feel it as doing justice, but in the end, God is the only righteous and objective, and worthy and true judge.
I think what you are saying is that Berkland's problems are not serious enough to warrant warning others about it, such that it should be overlooked and would eventually self-correct over time. I disagree.
Ed and Kelly will have to answer ultimately to God, and we are not them, so we don't know their true motives. Keep in mind that we will have to answer to God as well, we are all sinners that have fallen short.
These sentiments have already been expressed, but it doesn't hurt to repeat them.
you will have no peace otherwise, always hoping they will somehow be implicated in a grand open fashion, which may not and most likely will not happen. why? because they have done good along with the bad. and you will fall into the cycle of wanting to hear how others too were wronged and being an endless collector of stories by those who were wronged, and find that to be a fuel that constantly fuels your anger and resentment.
The primary concern here is not "inner peace" but exposing a problem. I am a supporter of the good that Berkland does. The question remains whether the bad things are necessary for the good to be done.
Of course, the biblical thing would be, you can try to make right with them to voicing your wrongs. but my personal experiences are that they are similar to becky in that sense. they admit general personal faults, but not specific faults that actually hurt anyone. more so, it seems to be turned around as all your fault, and that you should repent for your wrong views and misunderstandings, because they love you and care for you. Often, their conversation tone will be of "I don't understand..." and perhaps they really don't understand, which is a pity, because compassion is all about trying to understand.
So we're on the same page regarding their equivocation.
So if your offender will not admit wrong, what do you do? Just forgive as much as you can, but at the same time, accept the reality that the relationship will not be the same, and that you can move on in peace in knowing that you have done your part.
Precisely, I want others to move on, knowing that their stance against Berkland was warranted. Forgiveness is not a one-time act, but is done time and time again whenever the offender is thought about.
Reading these blogs have made me think deeply about my GFC experience and I have more questions to ask. If I asked a leader at church I'm not sure I would get a straight honest answer. I would say finding GFC and being active in the church has been mostly a positive experience for me but my inner voice is telling me something is wrong/strange about the situation. HAMCYCLE, you seem to be knowledgeable about the Berkland/GFC church and want to get the truth out so I was hoping I could contact(email) you with some questions that I have. I don't feel that comfortable posting it here. Thanks!
In continuation from the previous post...I'm seriously considering leaving the church, but I can't decide if I want to stay or leave. There are good reasons for both.
In the long-term, I don't think this church is the right fit for me if I'm honest with my self. I know it would be easier to leave now as opposed to later. However, I'm having a difficult time coming to a firm decision to depart because I have no idea where I would go. What church would I attend and where would I live? Also I probably won't see most of my friends after I leave so after thinking about this over and over again I'm still undecided. For the people that left Berkland/GFC what made you decide to leave?
Sure: geemayle of the same handle.
hi Hamcycle,
this is "truthseeker".
Thanks for your response to my comment. FYI, I do not take this lightly at all, and I think this whole issue weighs quite heavily, not just to everyone here but to me personally.
I do want to point out one thing you said and respond to it:
The primary concern here is not "inner peace" but exposing a problem. I am a supporter of the good that Berkland does. The question remains whether the bad things are necessary for the good to be done.
Just as you point out that the bad things should not be done for the good - in other words, that the ends don't justify the means, in the same way, I am asking those who read this blog to do the same.
Don't give in too much to the anger and bitterness you may feel and the urge to let the whole world know about all the tragic details about what you went through. They do provide release, but at the same time, I wonder if we fall into the same trap of doing "bad" to justify it as a means to a good end.
I've read all your posts and the ensuing comments, and many are not edifying (I know it's mostly out of your control - all you can do is delete, but I understand your allowance of people's freedom of speech).
I think they tear down and many are as you said 2 dimensional.
I think there are enough post and comments here now to allow people to know a fuller view of what's going on, and then be able to allow their own experiences and healthy sense of doubt and personal conviction and God's leading to guide the individual.
I mean this with the sincerest of heart, not just to hamcycle, but to all of you out there. I feel for you. I do.
But please do not fall into the trap of making justice your end goal and mission in life. Let go and forgive in your heart of any bitterness.
Instead, do the good that was perhaps not shown unto you. Be more caring, and be more empathetic, while not surrendering truth. Do your own best to administer both truth and grace in your life in all your relationships around you. And I hope and pray that this will in the end, make you a more faithful person who has a more genuine and intimate relationship with God.
Not all experiences are bad. Bad experiences can actually refine us, and God may even be using that to refine and mold us.
Please keep this in mind and may you all become more fervent, genuine, empathetic, gracious and humble Christ-followers.
-truthseeker
truthseeker,
Could you explain this harm that you believe is being accomplished on these web pages?
You should know that much worse things are being said outside of these blogs. You will hear broad statements such as "Berkland is a cult." Here, at least, there is some correction to such claims.
And you really must give some consideration to the audience. Worst case scenario: a non-believer stumbling onto this site after being invited to a BBC campus event. If that person reads this blog even half-awake, he should come to the realization that not all Christians blindly follow. That debate and discussion are not abandoned before joining a church.
If a person comes to this site and concludes that Christianity is much too contentious, well he isn't a student of history and no church should take advantage of such ignorance.
Yes, there are some posts here that suggest an unhealthy attitude toward BBC. I would rather have them post angry comments, here, and feel some sense of release and community, rather than bottling it up and finding truly destructive outlets.
You probably know that there are some very bitter and enraged people out there. Even those claiming to have moved on betray a sense of regret and feelings of anger. You need only read some of their blogs. There may be BBC members that will become disgruntled ex-Berklanders in the future. Well, this site will have given them sufficient notice so that they can take responsibility for their own actions.
I say let this blog stand. It does not misrepresent the faith to which we have committed ourselves. Nor does it disparage the community of believers. It is very specific. And in its specificity, I see much truth.
hi 7/08/2008 5:46 PM,
I have nothing against this blog. As a matter of fact, I believe it's helped me as well.
My main concern is for the people who are reading it, which I think can be categorized into 2 main audiences (at least this is my assumption):
1. the disgruntled exBBC or exGFC person.
2. the current BBC or GFC person who is wondering if he or she should leave.
I am addressing #1.
As hamcycle's post is entitled as such, I think people should strive to move on in their lives rather than reliving that past and fueling a constant flame of bitterness, anger and resentment.
As I mentioned, I believe all experiences can be used by God for the betterment of ourselves.
I rather am impressed with hamcycle's writing, and I think I understand his heart of not wanting good Christians to be hurt and damaged, and hence this blog.
I don't think he should take down this blog. That's not my request. My request is that the readers read what they've had to read, make their decisions, move on, and live life in the current and in tune with how God wants them to live.
I understand that there is a time for anger and grieving and just venting. But once that's done, move on into the present.
I think it's an unhealthy thing for example to find connection with others in venting anger about a common past. Why not center (or re-center) it on something positive and edifying?
There is a time for everything as per Eccl 3:
Ecclesiastes 3
A Time for Everything
1 There is a time for everything,
and a season for every activity under heaven:
2 a time to be born and a time to die,
a time to plant and a time to uproot,
3 a time to kill and a time to heal,
a time to tear down and a time to build,
4 a time to weep and a time to laugh,
a time to mourn and a time to dance,
5 a time to scatter stones and a time to gather them,
a time to embrace and a time to refrain,
6 a time to search and a time to give up,
a time to keep and a time to throw away,
7 a time to tear and a time to mend,
a time to be silent and a time to speak,
8 a time to love and a time to hate,
a time for war and a time for peace.
--
So when you have had your time to think things through and come up with your own decision, move on.
Don't waste your life away wanting to see someone who you feel has wronged you, fall into some misfortune.
Rather forgive (as difficult as it may be) and trust God, both with your life and with his own handling of how all this will pan out.
That's all I'm saying.
on a side note...
if you're part of audience #2, consider this blog and others like it with a lens of objectivity, and gather what you can to make your own decision.
If honestly you are growing in your personal relationship with Jesus, stay. If not, then consider why and perhaps try another church. But take this decision very seriously.
I think some in #2 may consider this blog and their posters as maybe people who are unreasonably angry and bitter. But I don't think that's the case.
Either everyone here is:
1. really unstable and not Christian and just upset about not trivial issues like not being able to date
or
2. it's a mix of those and some genuine Christians who have honestly been hurt and offended unjustly.
You make the call.
sorry, need to correct a typo:
1. really unstable and not Christian and just upset about TRIVIAL issues like not being able to date (casual dating that is).
-truthseeker
truthseeker,
I will begin by quoting hamcycle.
"If we are not leading the Christian lives we ought to be living, we should acknowledge that we do so at our own peril. Knowing what you know, grow to become the Christian that you believe to be sound, at your own pace and without pressure..."
If you are reiterating hamcycle's message and the message that we should forgive because we were forgiven much, then we can all hold hands and agree.
But I think you are softening hamcycle's message and, really, not distinguishing those who have axes to grind and those who are intelligently and conscientiously discussing Berkland.
I wonder why you would present those two options at the end of your most recent message. You write as if you are sympathetic to the voices on these blogs and you suggest two alternatives as if to display objectivity. But before we get into those two choices, let's discuss how you've primed things preceding the alternatives.
You mention that the criteria for staying at Berkland is whether you are "growing" in your relationship with Christ. I suppose that's as good a criterion as any. But whose definition of "growing" are we using, here. Berkland discourages introspective consideration of one's relationship and uses a rather narrow and self-serving definition of Christian growth. You also suggest that inquiring readers read these blogs with a grain of salt and that they scrutinize their personal motives for leaving Berkland.
If there is scrutiny, shouldn't we scrutinize both camps equally? Let's talk about Pastor Ed's letter and its enumeration of wickedness in Berkland. Let's talk about how the churches have dealt with Pastor Ed's falling-out with Becky and how they have addressed it, honestly or dishonestly, in the respective congregations. It's not just the elephant in the room. It's a herd of elephants.
But these are minor points, I understand, so, let us move to the choices you've presented. Although it seems that you present the first option as plainly to be rejected, you leave it hanging there as an option.
Really, do "some" who come here think hamcycle and some of the commenters are "unreasonably angry and bitter." Can someone truly conclude that from reading this blog carefully?
Your second option leaves me wanting as well. You say "some genuine Christians who have honestly been hurt and offended unjustly." Let's break this down, shall we?
You say "honestly hurt" as if to suggest that we are only here to expose our wounds.
You say "offended unjustly" as if to suggest that personal offense is what brings us here.
There's much more to hamcycle's writing, here. You know that and yet you fail to mention something about the issues raised about the house that Becky built.
To be clear, I'm not suggesting that you are some crafty agent of Berkland/Gracepoint. I just think that everyone knows that forgiveness is where we will eventually need to be. Some are still working on it, but most of us understand that we are called to a life free from resentment and from the binds of others' harmful acts.
I think in all your extensive writing in these comments, you suggest that forgiveness means keeping silent and that ex-Berklanders come here only to complain about real or imagined injuries. That may be the other blog.
If you have genuine concern for ex-Berklanders, then very good. Thank you. But, again, I think you are softening the message here. Or perhaps co-opting it to suggest that moving on and forgiveness means that we should not speak critically of Berkland. I recall that no softening was asked for and I believe none is needed.
Hi 7/09/2008 11:33 PM,
I have said what I said with no ulterior motives. I have written them with a genuine heart for those here.
Please don't read into it beyond what I have stated.
Thank you.
God's grace be with you all.
-truthseeker
Hello,
I was hoping someone could share any of their impressions about the Berkland Church in Washington D.C. or the one in Seoul.
My girlfriend (long-distance) attends the one in Seoul and was previously in Washington. I got worried previously when I heard that I wasn´t allowed to meet my girlfriends roomates and that all the sisters kept their relationships secret from each other in order to deter jealousy. I am a Caucasian American so I chocked it up to Korean cultural differences.
I did a google search to learn about the church and I stumbled upon all these blogs and the split and much more than I bargained for. I don´t think my girlfriend knows about the Berkely-Boston history. It really scares me to think my girlfriend might be falling into something that could really warp her and stunt her in her spiritual growth.
I really hope someone can say that the Washington and Seoul churches are different and normal. I´m beginning to doubt it.
Neither church is a cult by definition. but your friend might end up spiritually and emotionally affected by high pressure, fear-based church tactics. Don't worry she will not be forced to do anything illegal or completely against bible teachings for the most part. some people can grow within the walls of berkland it's true. for those people its just great for them or so it seems. give your friend these blogs and let her decide. chances are if she's not one of those who grow in berkland she's feeling the familiar doubts about who and waht she's giving her life to right now.
Regarding the girlfriend issue, it should also be noted that there will be a ceiling for the sister attending BBC D.C. if she continues to maintain a relationship outside of the Berkland system. They may tolerate the interchurch relationship while they are putting the hooks to her, but they will not bump her into leadership positions if she continues to date outside of BBC.
I don't think I've seen a single Berkland-nonBerkland couple last longer than a few months. Either the Berklander leaves because of the strain on the relationship or the Berklander decides to break up with the non-Berklander.
To the commenter at 7/28/2008 6:55 AM, I assume you have already spent some time in prayer on the issue. Just a hypothetical: if you see that her faith is indeed maturing at the church, would you consider joining BBC? If her leaders haven't pressured her about making certain choices in the direction of your relationship, that day is coming. Some BBC pastors find such relationships and independent dating (meaning the introduction was not made by BBC leadership), in general, intolerable.
This resource/website may be helpful to see if your issues are valid, and if they are, to see how to obtain healing/recovery and reconciliation:
http://www.barnabasministry.com/index.htm
hi..
i fall into the category of #2 regarding the type of audience reading this blog.. after a lot of time thinking, i confirmed that i want to leave berkland. I also talked about this in depth with my parents who are also Christian. i had a lot of time to think about it during the last few months, but i'm having a really hard time.. i'm really shy so first of all, i don't know where I would go to church afterwards. second of all, i don't know if i can handle the ostracism and all the negative stuff that might happen if i decide to leave.. i guess i'd appreciate all ur prayers and advice on what to do. thanks.. also, recently i was really sick so i could not go out to some church activities. yet .. no one called or e-mailed so i realize that if i do decide to leave, no one will really care but shun me.
Praying for you...be strong and courageous. You will pull through.
Anonymous, it will be difficult, but there is life after GFC. You will emerge stronger and wiser. :)
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